GOP Torture Discussion Ended by Torture

Chicago Conservative WLS radio host Erich "Mancow" Muller manned up and put his political belief to the test on defining waterboarding as torture. Since Hannity of Fox News wouldn’t own up to his declaration that he would be tortured and water boarded for charity to prove that it is not torture, Mancow felt he needed to undergo the actual treatment. I wouldn’t have the guts to do this but I give Mancow credit for bellying up to the bar and undergoing what I honestly believe is inhumane torture.

I first saw this story over at Memeorandum but my twin brotha from another Motha over at the Gun Toting Liberal has his own interesting thoughts on waterboarding and torture that is a must read.

NBC Chicago is reporting that the average person can’t last more than 14 seconds under this form of torture. Mancow didn’t do so well and the Enhanced Interrogation Method changed his mind on the definition of torture…

"I want to find out if it's torture," Mancow told his listeners Friday morning, adding that he hoped his on-air test would help prove that waterboarding did not, in fact, constitute torture.

The debate over whether waterboarding constitutes torture reached a fever pitch this week as re-ignited claims that Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) knew as early as 2002 about waterboarding techniques being used, and former Vice President Dick Cheney and President Barack Obama gave "dueling speeches" Thursday.

Snip and Drip…

Turns out the stunt wasn't so funny. Witnesses said Muller thrashed on the table, and even instantly threw the toy cow he was holding as his emergency tool to signify when he wanted the experiment to stop. He only lasted 6 or 7 seconds.

"It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that's no joke,"Mancow said, likening it to a time when he nearly drowned as a child. "It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back...It was instantaneous...and I don't want to say this: absolutely torture."
"I wanted to prove it wasn't torture," Mancow said. "They cut off our heads, we put water on their face...I got voted to do this but I really thought 'I'm going to laugh this off.' " - NBC Chicago

Video Link

And here is the actual video of Mancow being waterboarded on You Tube...


I happen to agree with the GTL in his summation that anyone that thinks waterboarding isn’t torture should take the plunge and volunteer for the Enhanced Interrogation Method. Aka “EIM”. Doesn’t EIM sound so much better than waterboarding or just using the word that it actually is? Mancow knows what that word is now and it is TORTURE! The GOP and Dick Cheney are running from that difference of definition. White washing or painting it as a bed of roses.

It’s kind of ironic that this is Memorial Day weekend where we as American’s remember all of our brave soldiers that died in service to the American way of life in our military. Defending torture isn’t anything that they fought for and died for. For their memory alone is why I honestly believe that everyone that authorized torture by any American’s hand needs to be prosecuted as a criminal. President, Vice President included. If they are not prosecuted, then what will stop the next monster that believes our Constitution and laws are just guidelines or words on some really old paper?

Papamoka

Other folks piping in on Waterboarding is TORTURE:
Think Progress
Crooks and Liars
Wonkette
Taylor Marsh

What is Pelosi Hiding

When it comes to this nation using torture, authorizing its use, and engaging or contemplating in the practice of torture, political parties on both sides of the aisle are showing severe signs of guilt and our representatives in our government, based on the land of the free are not innocent by any means. Even leaders in high positions in our Congress such as the Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, is waffling on what she knew and how she knew it. Speaker Pelosi is dodging the Sunday news shows that more or less ask the most pertinent questions based on the latest issues. Running from them is a sign of guilt in my honest opinion and Speaker Pelosi has refused all interviews for Sunday.

Pelosi turns down Sunday show invitations
By Emily Goodin
Posted: 05/16/09 03:03 PM [ET]

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) turned down invitations to be on several Sunday morning talk shows and is instead spending the weekend with her family.

The Speaker was invited to appear on NBC's "Meet the Press,” ABC's "This Week,” “Fox News Sunday” and CNN’s “State of the Union,” according to sources at the networks.

One source said Pelosi (D-Calif.) will be attending her granddaughter's first communion in Phoenix on Sunday. - The Hill

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A person in the position of Speaker of the House has to be very careful what they say and how they say it. Speaker Pelosi claims that she was never told the truth by the CIA on the issue of torture and when it was first raised under the Bush Presidency and yet the new Director of the CIA under President Obama claims she was told the truth. So who is telling the truth? I’m betting my poker chips on neither and just folding my hand. That doesn’t make me a fool, it just lets me play the next set of cards and study who is better at bluffing the media into thinking that Pelosi is innocent, the CIA is innocent, or that former Vice President Cheney was a political guru in manipulating the media once more. When everything is said and done, Cheney went on the Sunday morning news shows, he pointed out his reasons to defend torture. (I still think he is the Anti-Christ) So why is Speaker Pelosi avoiding the Sunday news circuit when it could clear her of any doubt?

If Speaker Pelosi has nothing to hide then I’m sure that the networks would have been willing to accommodate her for a delayed broadcast if she had personal family obligations. All of the networks would have flown their crews to her. This is the news story for the week! And yes a grandchild’s first communion is a valid reason for not attending the Sunday news requests for a guest spot. And yet something still smells funny and I can’t put my fingers on it.

If you look at the torture issue with an open political mind then many people are guilty of compliance and allowing it to happen. No political party is innocent and it was a severe lack in judgment by all affiliated with our nation endorsing and using torture against an enemy that has no qualms against killing thousands for the sake of their twisted belief in God. Is President Obama wrong to think that this issue, all of the people involved and prosecuted under his predecessors orders could be detrimental to moving on and making sure that it never happens again?

If we are to be true to ourselves as Liberal American’s then we need to look at those amongst us that have not served the standards we expect our leaders to stand up to. If the Speaker of the House has a clear conscience then she should have gone out of her way to clear her name on Saturday when she was available and then had the full right to have chucked the bird at the Sunday news shows.

What are you hiding Speaker Pelosi? This Liberal Democrat wants to know! And how does this help Darth Cheney and President Bush look innocent when it comes to torture? Is Speaker Pelosi playing right into the Cheney mastermind of the media? We shall see. Or as my cousin Jules says, only God will ever know.

Papamoka

Thanks to Memeorandum for the hat tip!

Jesse Ventura Calls Cheney a Coward

If you read the title of this post I’d just like to say Amen to former Governor Ventura’s description of former Vice President Cheney. Unlike Cheney, Ventura had to train under stress and was water boarded as part of his Navy SEAL training. Jesse Ventura knows what torture is because he went through it. He experienced it, he lived it. Water boarding is torture and Governor Ventura would prosecute everyone involved with it, authorized it, and passed it. Torture is illegal and the Governor has some interesting points. Specifically, that former Vice President Dick Cheney had five deferments during the draft and that Rush Limbaugh that is forever waiving the flag on the political right never served in our nations military. Governor Ventura calls them both Chicken Hawks.

Mind you, as a moderate Liberal I don’t see a single Republican out there that could touch President Obama in the next election but the former Governor of Minnesota as an Independent certainly could. Mind you this is a fairly long video of the Governor on Larry King but it is a must see for those of you on the cutting edge of tomorrows political issues. First he calls Cheney more or less an ass and coward in defense of Colin Powell, Rush Limbaugh is a coward too according to the Governor. Then he calls the drug war a farce in line with prohibition strengthening underworld black markets and mobsters, then he calls the Cuban trade embargo a joke and idiotic and lacking all common sense. Kick me in the butt, I like this guys thinking!

Check out this CNN video of Governor Ventura on Larry King…

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Governor Ventura has no immediate plans to run for any political office but I’m pretty sure that he could make for one hell of a political candidate on the national stage if he so choose so. He sure as hell would make the daily coverage colorful in the press.

Surf on Governor! And by all means stay by the phone for the call to be our first Ambassador to Cuba when President Obama works that mess out.

Papamoka

Cheney Disses Colin Powell

A friend once told me that you need to watch out for people that could turn on you when things get rough. Dick Cheney, the former Vice President turned on former military leader, former Secretary of State, and former confidant of the White House, Colin Powell. Politically, Cheney would go to bat for Rush Limbaugh first over Colin Powell, the same Rush Limbaugh who never served in our nations military, never held a public office, and would bite the hand that feeds him if it works for his entertainment talk radio network. Um, Mr. former Vice President, you just slapped every man and woman that served in our armed forces upside the head? One has to wonder how Cheney thinks, decorated military and life long public servant versus a blow hard aleged addict of prescription drugs. Cheney still goes for the aleged drug addict?

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Need I mention that Dick Cheney never served in our nations military but condoned tactics that could be used against our own troops if torture is justified? And it was under his watch! It only takes a swipe of a pen and a signature to authorize anything in defense of America but the consequences of thinking that you are right just because you say you are is way off of the foundation of what our nation was and is built on. Thank God that nothing ever happened to President Bush where Cheney would have moved up the ladder. Cheney would have nuked all of Iraq in a heart beat even though our troops were stationed there. His logic for doing so would be for the betterment of democracy, as long as you don’t agree with his definition of it.

Walk over to this side of the aisle Colin Powell, you get a hug and a way to go for being an American that believes we have a moral obligation to humanity.

Papamoka

My thanks to Think Progress for the hat tip…

Condi Rice Admits Torture

Over at the Huffington Post they have a great story about a Stamford student asking the former Secretary of State Condi Rice if she was a part of the authorization of torture on American soil. Condi pulled a tricky Dick Nixon and more or less passed the buck up to President Bush that she authorized torture by direct order from President Bush. Kudo to The Young Turks for breaking this story and the Huff Po for blasting it out there on the internet.

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I need to get my head into Soprano mode for a second here. If you are President and you tell your aka Captains to off somebody, because you are the President it is not against the law? What a sweet deal that is! If that is the case, lets assasinate that son of a bitch in Iran, Imadinnerjacket or whatever his name is. Then we should off that scumbag in South America Hugo Chevy or something or other is his name. Castro, he has to go. His brother too. Then we should get rid of them Teamsters and all them union people. Then we should go after the Jews and them pesky Catholics. Do you see a pattern here in this or should I go on?

Something tells me that this is only the top of the cake, just the frosting so to speak of everything Bush and Cheney did against the law and against the Constitution of the United States of America.

Condi Rice admitted in this taped conversation that she knew full well about torture when her boss was telling the American people that we as a country do not torture. And she passed on authorization and the orders to torture. If that isn’t gang land thinking then I do not know what is.

This matter is no longer in the Presidents pocket to squash. This is a matter for the Attorney General to enforce the laws of our nation regardless of whom it may charge with crimes against American law. Polls say that 61% of Americans do not want this prosecuted or followed through but that is not taking into consideration the number of people that have children or loved ones in the military that would never want these same “Enhanced Information Techniques” used against their loved ones. We are a land of laws and if this abomination of the law is ignored then it sets a very dangerous precedent for future Presidents or aka Kings.

The law is there for a reason, it sets boundaries and does not have a gray area to venture into and cross. If you break the law then you deserve to be prosecuted like Joe and Jane SixPack would be.

President Nixon crossed the line and resigned in disgrace over it. He broke the law. He stole the peoples trust. President Bush is guilty of the same crime. Defending America isn’t always about keeping us safe from harm, its about upholding our laws that our President’s swear to uphold on the holy bible.

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Time will tell if the Attorney General has the guts to actually do his job or not.

Papamoka

Torturer Tortured by Torture News

When you have a retired FBI agent that was involved with the torture that the Bush administration authorized come forth and tell the world it was wrong, then it was wrong. Techniques used or as the right wing now calls them “Enhanced Interrogation Methods” did not offer up any more information than traditional criminal investigation techniques that are used legally even against US citizens. (Look for the word Torture morph into something more acceptable and easier on the ears in days to come) More or less it was a disgusting release for jerks acting like wild little boys that just wanted to put a firecracker up a frogs ass and light the fuse. Just to see what it would do to the frog. Isn’t that pretty much the same thing that the monsters of the Holocaust like Mengala did to the Jews and other undesirables of the Third Reich during World War II?

It is truly a sad day in America when we have people arguing over what the definition of torture is. I dare say to anyone thinking that they have a clever thought to this argument that defends torture, what if it was or is your brother or sister enduring these so called harmless torture methods? Can the local police now use these methods to gain information too? Where do you draw the line in the sand in the acceptance of these practices endorsed and defended by the right wing operatives and the former members of the Bush administration?

My point is this, if a precedent is established and set in stone, and it ignores the law of the land and the will of the people then who is to stop the next monster that thinks he or she is omnipotent and above all laws? Ali Soufan, a former FBI agent involved with the torture events has this to say over at the New York Times… (I highly recommend reading the whole piece)

My Tortured Decision
By ALI SOUFAN
Published: April 22, 2009

It is inaccurate, however, to say that Abu Zubaydah had been uncooperative. Along with another F.B.I. agent, and with several C.I.A. officers present, I questioned him from March to June 2002, before the harsh techniques were introduced later in August. Under traditional interrogation methods, he provided us with important actionable intelligence.

We discovered, for example, that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed was the mastermind of the 9/11 attacks. Abu Zubaydah also told us about Jose Padilla, the so-called dirty bomber. This experience fit what I had found throughout my counterterrorism career: traditional interrogation techniques are successful in identifying operatives, uncovering plots and saving lives.

There was no actionable intelligence gained from using enhanced interrogation techniques on Abu Zubaydah that wasn’t, or couldn’t have been, gained from regular tactics. In addition, I saw that using these alternative methods on other terrorists backfired on more than a few occasions — all of which are still classified. The short sightedness behind the use of these techniques ignored the unreliability of the methods, the nature of the threat, the mentality and modus operandi of the terrorists, and due process. - New York Times

This whole debate over defining what is justified torture is just nuts. One is an Almond, the other is a Walnut, and the other is a Peanut? They are all nuts and a nut is a freakin’ nut no matter how hard or soft the torturing shell is!

My Uncle Eddy fought through all of World War II in the US Navy and lived to see the victory over Japan. He went through hell fighting for what was right and managed to live through the entire Pacific campaign against an enemy that at the time had no value for human life what so ever. He died on his way home for good in an accident getting off a transport ship in the San Francisco bay. He slipped and hit his head, drowning in the bay. His body wasn’t recovered for three weeks. My Uncle Dick piloted a bomber plane over Nazi Germany on so many missions that he finally came home a total wreck but he never regretted a single flight. My own Dad served in the US Navy in the Pacific as a medic attached to the 3rd Marines and never regretted the horror he saw so many young men die from to protect America and what she stood for. One thing they all had in common was defending the way of the American people. Truth, Liberty, and Justice. Not one of these men would have defended torture in any form of captured enemy prisoners. It just isn’t the American way.

The more this topic on torture evolves, the more I understand how much the rule of our laws is important.

My thanks to Memeorandum once more for the news tip!

Papamoka

America's Iraq is Torturing and Killing Gays

Good Morning Papamoka Bloggers! I don't have anything polite to add to a story I read this morning on The Raw Story about how gays are being tortured and killed in Iraq by both religious terrorists and the government. It even describes how the torturers are coming up with new, creative ways to kill their poor victims.

I feel horrible for those poor people. Most important, as an American, it makes me extremely angry that we are over there risking our soldier's lives, spending billions each month to protect those horrible people, and standing by and doing NOTHING!

The reports suggest there's a witch hunt in progress, with gays being rounded-up, tortured and killed. Reports say that some are killed by having their anuses glued shut, causing a painful, grotesque death. I don't know what to say about that, except that my heart breaks to think we freed those horrible people allowing them to do their nightmarish deeds.

More Americans should know about this nightmare, because we are partly responsible. Please join me and tell our representatives how angry we are that innocent people are being persecuted by a regime we protect and support. We need to stop them or GET THE HELL OUT! Think about it, if we do nothing, than we are no better. We're simply the guards protecting the lynch mobs murdering innocent people. It's wrong! We shouldn't allow it to happen!

It appears our young men and women died to replace a brutal, inhumane regime with brutal, inhumane, intolerant people. They seem the same to me. It all seems like such a waste of lives, money and effort.

Michael Boh
Papamoka's Left Coast Contributor
from Our Rants & Raves Blog

PS - If you decide to take action, here are a few links that may help you. Email President Obama, Secretary of State Clinton, and/or your national elected officials. If you wish to call, simply call the Whitehouse at 202-456-1414, or the Capitol Switchboard at 202-224-3121. I also suggest you contact your local newspaper. Please let them all know how angry we are to see our leaders and military standing idly by while lynch mobs persecute and murder innocent gay people in Iraq.

Obama Changes Position On Torture Prosecution

I should start off this post that I am a firm believer that those that endorsed torture during the Bush AKA I’m really the President Cheney administration deserve no respect or gratitude from any American citizen. We live in a land of laws, and in those laws are protections of not only our citizens but our enemies. Believing in our nation comes with a price and that price is full respect of the law that we not only pass in this nation but laws we agree to as a nation with the rest of the world. That can get complicated but Prisoners Of War, POW’s, deserve fair treatment from every nation in the world. That may first sound ridiculous but how many Vietnam POW’s do you know that faced horrible torture? Just ask John McCain while he isn’t on the campaign trail on his true feelings and thoughts on torture.

President Obama today stated that he is now open to the justice department looking into prosecuting the people that authorized torture under the guise of US Government protection of America. With limitations? Over at MSNBC they have this video with President Obama explaining his change in position when it comes to prosecuting anyone involved with torture…

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Visit msnbc.com for Breaking News, World News, and News about the Economy

Freedom comes with a price, and that price is an understanding of what is right and what is wrong. It’s called the law of the land. In respect to President Bush and what part he and his co-horts played in this torture debate, I have to honestly think they deserve a full Presidential pardon from President Obama. President Bush swore to respect and defend America as best he could and that is what he did. He dropped the ball on respecting America but he did in fact defend America to the best of his sometimes incompetent abilities. How Bush defended America after 9/11 is up to historians to decide and not for lawyers, prosecutors, and courts to decide. An American President swears to defend America first above all else, how he or eventually she does that is for them to decide. I'm pretty sure that this Liberal is extemely controversial on this issue in asking for a pardon for President Bush. Screw Cheney though!

As for Dick Cheney, former Vice President, all of his talk on the networks is turning the tide of many moderates that used to be in the Republican Party against the Republican Party. People that have sons and daughters in the military want to know that if our government endorses torture, which Cheney denied originally, will not have their sons and daughters tortured. Parents want to know for sure that our sons and daughters will not face the same forms of torture today or in the future if their children serve proudly in America’s military. Any argument Cheney gives defending torture is an argument that has no weight to it. Go back to your hidey hole in Wyoming Dick and shut the hell up! America has grown up since the days of we must live in fear forever after 9/11. It just isn’t in our blood to do so.

The world is a much smaller place than it used to be and we need to work with our friends in the world to make it a better place to live, if not just for today but for decades to come.

Papamoka

American Fear

Hello Bloggers - As many of you already know, I've been on the "Save American Justice" bandwagon lately hoping for leading Democrats and Obama to take a strong position against the Bush lawbreakers since the inauguration. Unfortunately, I may be giving up on convincing our Republican friends based on numerous recent debates.

To be blunt, I'm having trouble meeting ANY Republicans - yes, I mean ANY - that are willing to admit that Bush went too far. They always defend Bush as honest at first, but when pressed with the facts they always turn to a "laws and the Constitution be damned" response. The "he kept us safe" and "that's all that matters" argument always prevails. Many finish with "the ends justify the means" even if they don't always realize they're saying it.

No matter what I say to them, our nation's founding principles of justice, humanity, and fair play during wartime mean very little to today's frightened Republican minority. They are completely uninterested in fair play these days. They seem almost brainwashed.

Our nation's "rules of engagement" have been pretty much the same since George Washington fought the British. Our founding father was a great example of fair play, despite the atrocities committed at that time. A few Americans have been charged with war crimes during past wars, but so far America has been considered a role model on how to act during times of crisis. American presidents have been pretty great leaders, representing our higher ideals during conflict, by and large.

America helped create the international conventions that guide civilized modern conflict. We always fought to protect civilians and war prisoners on all sides for decades. We didn't waiver on our principles in the past despite enemy atrocities and crimes. We always took the high road, hoping to serve as a good example of what is right in the world. Until Bush and his sheep-like Republicans, we were a shining example of good in the world - that "shining city on a hill" that Reagan liked so much.

The Republicans I've been talking to recently all seem willing to do "whatever it takes" to keep us safe. They all seem unconcerned with past rules of engagement. They seem to feel that "everything has changed in the world." I'm sure our forefathers would disagree with them if they could share some of their horror stories. I don't care what you say, but this nation has faced horrible enemies for over two centuries, and I'm sure we can handle a few thousand religious, pirate-like zealots, without abandoning our principles.

Bush and Cheney somehow brainwashed a large part of America into profoundly changing their national mindset. "9/11 changed everything" is a phrase they use far too often, and one that should be eliminated from our national debate. Their "war on terror" is also counterproductive.

The conservatives I've debated seem perfectly comfortable with the idea of torture ("on Americans if necessary" was said), eavesdropping ("on AMERICANS too" was mentioned), open-ended suspension of habeus corpus, soldiers on our streets, detention camps, neighborhood informants, private armies, and even genocide against those who they say "threaten our existence." It's very black and white with them. There is a rancid, ugly fear out there today, and it's mostly coming from Republicans. Let's hope our democracy holds; a potential dictator could have a field-day with today's Republican minority.

Bush, Cheney and the irresponsible right-wing media have helped turn a large chunk of Americans into pathetic, frightened cowards. Yes, if that applies to you, that's what I consider you - a COWARD! Yes, I said it, a COWARD!

That's what I've been calling my Republican friends who espouse undermining our national principles out of fear. You see, I would rather we risk our lives, and remain brave Americans, than sacrifice the best of what this nation is about - justice and human decency - out of fear. YES, I said it, and I mean it. OUR LIVES, ALL OUR LIVES, EVEN YOURS! For God's sake Republicans, grow a pair! Trust me, I'll feel the same way if we're attacked again. Being attacked will change NOTHING! NOTHING!

Just like our soldiers, we need to stand-up for what we believe in. Our nation needs to be an example for good in this world. No matter how bad they get, we need to stay above it. We need to always treat our enemies as human beings. Justice should not be sacrificed at the alter of fear. I will never stop fighting to preserve our national honor and system of justice. We need to fight to remain a just and honorable nation.

Michael Boh

Papamoka's Left Coast Contributor

from Our Rants & Raves Blog

Obama Needs to Be More Concerned About Justice

Hello Papamoka Bloggers - I was going to write about the lack of regret shown by George - "I never made a mistake as president" - Bush at this morning's official final press conference, but something else caught my eye that made me even more upset. So, after my rant about choosing Warren to speak at the inaugural, I now offer my second RANT against Obama.

Unlike Republicans, we're not afraid to criticize our leaders in public.

The Internet is filled with snippets of Barack Obama's interview on ABC with George Stephanopoulos yesterday, which I missed because I do try to get away from political news in favor of a life outside on weekends. I can't believe it, but Obama said that Guantanamo Bay is not a priority for him, and even more disturbing is how he doesn't seem very concerned about the crimes committed by the Bush administration.

"We have not made final decisions, but my instinct is for us to focus on how to we make sure we're moving forward, we are doing the right thing. That doesn't mean that if somebody has blatantly broken the law that they are above the law, but my orientation is going to be moving forward," Obama said. THERE IS PLENTY OF EVIDENCE ALREADY THEY'VE BROKEN THE LAW, so what the hell is he talking about? Start talking about BRINGING THEM TO JUSTICE!

Now, I'm aware that we have an economic crisis that needs to be THE priority, but that doesn't mean that his Justice Department is unable to begin investigations into the crimes of the past eight years. The statement worries me a great deal. HE NEEDS TO MAKE IT A PRIORITY TOO.

We understood how he might have avoided the issue during the election, but what is preventing him from letting justice take its course now? NOTHING! There will be a grassroots DEMOCRATIC PARTY UPROAR if the Obama Justice Department doesn't do their job of going after the lawbreakers of the past eight years. Core constituents will be VERY ANGRY!

Numerous human rights and civil liberties groups are calling for senior Bush administration officials to be prosecuted for a series of alleged abuses, and OBAMA KNOWS IT. There are too many to list, but a few major ones include lies related to Iraq, war profiteering, the illegal detention and torture of terrorist suspects, domestic spying, destruction of White House records, lying before Congress, obstructing justice, and on and on. There are Congressional Reports that clearly state where the lawbreaking occurred, and OBAMA KNOWS IT!

Obama criticized Vice President Dick Cheney for his public defense of "extraordinary" interrogation methods used against top terrorism suspects, including waterboarding. "Vice President Cheney, I think, continues to defend what he calls extraordinary measures or procedures when it comes to interrogations and from my view waterboarding is torture," Obama said. "I have said that under my administration we will not torture."

TALK IS FINE, but they broke domestic and international laws so GO AFTER THEM AND THROW THEM IN JAIL! If you don't do it Obama, then I believe the international community should do what we're obviously too pathetic to do ourselves. Unfortunately, that would be worse, and make us look very bad.

I will do everything I can to give future President Obama every benefit of the doubt, but we elected him to do many things at the same time, and that includes restoring real justice. So fix the economy while REESTABLISHING JUSTICE in the country. WE WANT INDICTMENTS, PERP WALKS, TRIALS, and CONVICTIONS! It is not negotiable. My message to the Obama team is that justice is not optional. Do the job we hired you for, and restore the nation to its former glory. Equal justice under law is its cornerstone.

Michael Boh
Papamoka's Left Coast Contributor
from Our Rants & Raves Blog

Confusion Over Torture All Started 41 Years Ago Tomorrow

Hello Saturday Papamoka Bloggers - I know we're used to being lied to by our politicians, but I think the confusion over John McCain's Vietnam captivity needs to be acknowledged on the anniversary of his capture.

It is potentially one of the most disturbing tales in American politics. The possibility that he lied about being tortured to win votes makes me very uneasy. I compiled the following from a very interesting article in today's London Times.

I know many of you Republicans are going to accuse me of not trusting an American hero over a Vietnamese jailer, but that's not true. I'm not saying McCain lied. I just think it's important to point out the discrepancies in the stories. Read the article in the Times and make up your own mind. I don't know who is telling the truth.

The Times interviewed his jailer Tran Trong Duyet. They were friends after the war. Duyet claims that McCain received good medical care and was never tortured in any way.

Amazingly, McCain crash-landed forty-one years ago tomorrow. He was supposedly treated for his injuries and spent the next five and a half years as a prisoner. The story accounts differ most when each side describes McCain’s incarceration, first at the prison known as the Hanoi Hilton and later at The Plantation.

Tran Tron Duyet's Version from the London Times
"[Duyet], the former prison director, met McCain a year after he had been shot down. He recalls a defiant rule-breaker, the patriotic son of an admiral and a fervent believer in the war. What he does not recall, however, is a victim of torture or violence."

“I never tortured or mistreated the PoWs and nor did my staff,” says Mr Duyet in contradiction of Mr McCain’s account and those of other prisoners. “The Americans were dropping bombs on military and civilian targets – so it’s not as if they had important information we needed to extract.” Mr Duyet says that he sympathises with Mr McCain and other PoWs for claiming that they were tortured. “It’s up to the Americans to decide whether or not he counts as a hero. He was very brave, very manly, he dared to argue with me and he was very intelligent. But all the talk of being tortured is for the sake of votes.”

McCain's Version from Faith of My Fathers, by John McCain
“I was hauled into an empty room and kept there for four days. At intervals, the guards returned to administer beatings. One held me while the others pounded away. They cracked several of my ribs and broke a couple of teeth. Weakened by beatings and dysentery, with my right leg again almost useless, I found it impossible to stand."

“On the third night I lay in my blood and waste, so tired and hurt that I could not move. Three guards lifted me to my feet and gave me the worst beating yet. They left me on the floor moaning from the pain in my arm. Despairing of any relief from pain and further torture, I tried to take my life.”

I don't know what to think. I guess I should believe McCain since he's a fellow American. It's weird though. What do you guys think? McCain does look permanently injured from possible torture, but supposedly his injuries from the crash were severe too.

You should also be aware of another creepy McCain fact related to Vietnam. Did you know that McCain has been receiving 100% disability payments from the Defense Department since the early seventies, despite his abilities and personal mobility?

Many in the veteran's community still think it's a travesty of justice. That level of disability is usually reserved for highly crippled vets. There are many examples of wheelchair bound soldiers who receive less than 50% disability. The man has too many red flags if you ask me.

I guess I'll just have to believe that John McCain did his best, and whether he was tortured or not, he says he was. I'll just have to give him the benefit of the doubt. That doesn't mean, however, that I am free of doubt. I still don't like the red flags. There are too many mysteries about the man.

Michael Boh
Papamoka's West Coast Contributor
from Our Rants & Raves Blog

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Bush “InteliGate” World Tour Debut

Over at the White House they are starting the process of cleansing themselves and the full administration of any evidence that they condoned any crimes. The latest news is that video tapes of severe torture cases were destroyed to protect the identities of the CIA in-terror-gators.

Today President Bush stated that he had no recollection of the tapes and their destruction. That is when you take a whiff to the air and ask yourself if you are near a cow farm full of bulls because something just does not smell right.

Over at the Washington Post they have this story on it…

Bush Does Not Recall Learning of Destroyed CIA Tapes
Senate's Second-Ranking Democrat Calls for Justice Dept. Probe

By William Branigin, Dan Eggen and Joby Warrick

Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, December 7, 2007; 3:14 PM

President Bush does not recall being informed before yesterday morning about the existence or subsequent destruction of video recordings showing harsh CIA interrogations of terrorism suspects, the White House said today.

The recordings, which CIA Director Michael V. Hayden disclosed yesterday had been made in 2002 but destroyed three years later, set off a furor on Capitol Hill today, with the Senate's second-ranking Democrat demanding a Justice Department investigation.

Snip and tuck…

The tapes were made to document any confessions the two men might make and to serve as an internal check on how the interrogations were conducted, senior intelligence officials said.

All the tapes were destroyed in November 2005 on the order of Jose A. Rodriguez Jr., then the CIA's director of clandestine operations, officials said. The destruction came after the Justice Department had told a federal judge in the case of Moussaoui that the CIA did not possess videotapes of a specific set of interrogations sought by his attorneys. A CIA spokesman said yesterday that the request would not have covered the destroyed tapes.

The tapes also were not provided to the Sept. 11 commission, which demanded a wide array of material and relied heavily on classified interrogation transcripts in piecing together its narrative of the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. - Washington Post

For some odd reason all I can think of is the Valerie Plame outing where good old George claimed no knowledge of the leak from inside the White House. He did however state that the person or persons responsible would no longer be working in his administration. I’m wondering if he and Dick ever laughed so hard in their lives? Now I’m wondering if they both went on vacation after he made that statement? Maybe he was telling the truth after all!

President Nixon only had the guts to delete a few minutes of his secretive tapes, George is bulk erasing everything he can get his hands on over at the CIA in Langley. This could be a huge job so our nation must sacrifice for the sake of the Presidency. The amount of electricity needed to delete all the crimes they have committed will take sixty eight waste to energy plants, 32,328 wind turbines, Niagra Falls power generated for six months, 1.2 million roof top solar panels and four D batteries (for Dick Cheney’s flashlight). Frankly, you have to admire his green energy initiative to get this critical job done.

This at least explains the amount of times the lights dim in your home or place of business. I’d of preferred that Nancy Pelosi would have started the impeachment process rather than having my lighting resemble a strobe light.

Papamoka

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Bush and Cheney Burn the Constitution

Picture courtesy of the White House





Pardon me for being so pissed off at this story in the New York Times on President Bush and Vice President Cheney breaking the laws of our nation by secretly setting up torture in the good old USA. Burn the damn Constitution and the Bill of Rights and full speed ahead for the new born King (s)! Most folks have mortgage burning parties, Bush and Cheney are having a Constitution burning party but it’s all hush hush. Don’t tell anyone but they broke the law.

Somebody call the decorator for the White House and get rid of all those old farts that believed in a nation under law. George Washington has to go, he was to much of a moderate liberal and for God’s sake he only had one tooth in his head. Replace George with one of Bugsy Segal smiling at the poker table in Vegas. Jefferson, what a hack! If there was ever a liberal in America this clown topped the cake. Replace his picture with Jesse James of the old west, now that is an American spirit to admire. That pussy footing FDR is a joke and his picture has to go too. Replace him with a real able bodied person that could fend for himself like the Teflon Don John Gotti.

We are a nation of laws and our President took an oath to uphold the Constitution. CNN, or Fox News must have missed the shot where he blew his nose with the Constitution right after the oath. Television blunders happen.

So while the Congress outlawed torture by American military and government agencies, don’t tell anyone but the President, Vice President, and the Attorney General continued on with their version of the law. Like that is a surprise to this writer?

Over at the New York Times they have this to say…


Secret U.S. Endorsement of Severe Interrogations

By SCOTT SHANE, DAVID JOHNSTON and JAMES RISEN
Published: October 4, 2007
This article is by Scott Shane, David Johnston and James Risen.

WASHINGTON, Oct. 3 — When the Justice Department publicly declared torture “abhorrent” in a legal opinion in December 2004, the Bush administration appeared to have abandoned its assertion of nearly unlimited presidential authority to order brutal interrogations.

But soon after Alberto R. Gonzales’s arrival as attorney general in February 2005, the Justice Department issued another opinion, this one in secret. It was a very different document, according to officials briefed on it, an expansive endorsement of the harshest interrogation techniques ever used by the Central Intelligence Agency.

The new opinion, the officials said, for the first time provided explicit authorization to barrage terror suspects with a combination of painful physical and psychological tactics, including head-slapping, simulated drowning and frigid temperatures.

Mr. Gonzales approved the legal memorandum on “combined effects” over the objections of James B. Comey, the deputy attorney general, who was leaving his job after bruising clashes with the White House. Disagreeing with what he viewed as the opinion’s overreaching legal reasoning, Mr. Comey told colleagues at the department that they would all be “ashamed” when the world eventually learned of it.

Later that year, as Congress moved toward outlawing “cruel, inhuman and degrading” treatment, the Justice Department issued another secret opinion, one most lawmakers did not know existed, current and former officials said. The Justice Department document declared that none of the C.I.A. interrogation methods violated that standard.

The classified opinions, never previously disclosed, are a hidden legacy of President Bush’s second term and Mr. Gonzales’s tenure at the Justice Department, where he moved quickly to align it with the White House after a 2004 rebellion by staff lawyers that had thrown policies on surveillance and detention into turmoil. - New York Times

If the laws of our land are not followed by all of our citizens including those from the President down then our nation and our people have a serious problem. Our laws and the legality of them is to be decided by the Supreme Court ultimately and not by a staffer with a law degree at the White House. Congress banned torture but the President probably had one of those pesky signing statements (Making the law written and passed by the Congress void) attached to his signature.

Over at the Gun Toting Liberal they have this to say about this same article...

GTL Comment: Okay, let’s just THINK for a moment — in future conflicts, the way we treat OUR prisoners will set the precedence for how our own troops are treated by our enemies. If you think this brutal, illegal treatment of our enemies is acceptable, then you have ZERO legs to stand on when the enemy inflicts this level of BRUTALITY upon your son, daughter, husband, wife, or friends in uniform. Is this such a “good idea” now? - GTL

One word… IMPEACHMENT! How many ways does the President and the Vice President have to break the law before somebody in the Congress grows some gonads to start the process?

When the laws of our land only apply to the rest of us and not the President or anyone in his administration then our format of government will have no function and that leads to just one thing… Anarchy! Impeach the President and the Vice President for breaking the laws that Congress passed.

Papamoka

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