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Friday, April 17, 2009

Republican Secession Confederate States of America


In the last few weeks Governors and legislators across America are passing legislation with no meat to it that is threatening secession from the Union that is the United States of America. It makes no sense to me as a moderate liberal but they are doing it in many right leaning political states.

President Andrew Jackson had a way to deal with Governors, Congressmen, and Senators talking about secession from the Union during his Presidency that demanded or threatened secession from the United States. Jackson, true to his take no prisoners mentality, sent a letter to the parties involved. It simply stated that he would hang anyone involved with treason against the United States government and the sovereignty of its Union.

Republican outbursts and calls for secession from the Union is more or less a tantrum from a political party that simply can not get its own act together. If you have better ideas on how to fix the economy then lets hear them! Tax cuts for the mega rich corporations hasn’t worked for eight years so what’s your next guess? Can tax cuts for one hundred plus million working people be good for the economy or is that just against everything the Republican party stands for? Wait a second, isn’t the Republican Party the ones that have no problem with any form of tax cut? Up is down and down is up and now nothing makes sense. Lefties in the political aisle are making right hand turns and the Righties in the opposing party are upset? I need a couple of Tylenol just trying to figure this out.

Over at Rasmussen they have this poll on the actual numbers of Texans that even want to leave the Union of the United States of America…

In Texas, 31% Say State Has Right to Secede From U.S., But 75% Opt To Stay
Friday, April 17, 2009

Thirty-one percent (31%) of Texas voters say that their state has the right to secede from the United States and form an independent country.

However, the latest Rasmussen Reports poll in the state finds that if the matter was put to a vote, it wouldn’t even be close. Three-fourths (75%) of Lone Star State voters would opt to remain in the United States. Only 18% would vote to secede, and seven percent (7%) are not sure what they'd choose.
- Rasmussen

I’m not the President but I would think that Obama would want to keep the fifty states we currently have intact. President Obama needs to send a clear message to the Governors and legislators in the states declaring the need or desire to secede from the Union a clear message of intent. Treason will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

What this all comes down to is that the Republican Party is pissed that they do not have the gravy train to feed off of anymore. Military contracts that were no bid are drying up, defense spending is shifting into plow share spending, money is being diverted away from supporting big oil for green energy. If I were in their place then I would try to defend my fatted calf too. And yet the lack of common sense lives on in states thinking that secession is remotely even a good idea.

Don’t be confused with someone that is conservative in thought with someone trying to defend millions if not billions in business deals with the United States government. One is a legitimate political thought process and the other is just a rapist of the treasury. The regular man or woman on the street in the states that have passed no muscle or bone secession legislation really don’t know what secession means. When you get right down to it, its isolation and the majority of states passing it like Texas and Georgia and Oklahoma have the weakest taxation policy to hold their own if their dream came true of becoming and independent nation. Has anyone actually put into thought how many U.S. Government facilities are in these states alone? They would have to be moved. Does NASA being in Houston ring a bell for the people of Texas? Everyone in Texas pack up the house if you work for NASA and get ready to move to New Jersey or California.

Papamoka

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23 Comments:

Blogger Nancy said...

Hi Papamoka! The idiots, as usual, have not done their homework. There is no legal authority to secede for any state. Texas can split into 5 states as written, but cannot secede. I suspect most Texans would be totally against splitting into five states! Good post, BTW!

6:28 PM  
Blogger Nancy said...

BTW, Papa, Texans call themselves the most patriotic state in America then they say they want to secede? Gee, there’s nothing as patriotic as seceding from the United States is there?!! Nuthin' but double-talk, double standards and words of very confused, if not psychotic, people.

6:48 PM  
Anonymous Infidel753 said...

Thirty-one percent (31%) of Texas voters say that their state has the right to secede from the United States and form an independent country.It wouldn't surprise me if even more than 31% of Texans (or of Americans in general) believe that the Earth is 6,000 years old. It is possible for large numbers of people to be mistaken.

There is no such right. We settled that in 1861-1865, if not before.

If these people don't like living in the United States, they have every right to emigrate to some country they find more congenial, wherever that might be. Secessionism is, as you say, treason, and should be treated as such.

Texans call themselves the most patriotic state in America then they say they want to secede?Nancy, please do notice that, according to the poll, the great majority of Texans oppose secession. Please don't tar all Texans with this garbage.

7:47 PM  
Blogger Nancy said...

Infidel - You're right. I shouldn't have used a generalization and I apologise. Not all Texans feel that way. I was really referring to those who do.

7:54 PM  
Blogger Papamoka said...

Honestly, one of my best business friends is from Texas and he is a true blood Republican but he is an American first. This whole discussion and legislation is just politics at its worst. If it were a bucket, it wouldn't have a bottom to hold water in it. And my Republican friend can see that too.

8:25 PM  
Blogger Papamoka said...

I need to clarify, don't get me wrong anyone, but anyone declaring secedding from the Union should be tried for treason. Their is no gray area on that in my honest opinion. Basically, they are rising the worst of political debate to a level that is not acceptable. Anarchy is not the answer either, talk, debate, opinion, talking about opinions is the answer.

8:37 PM  
Blogger Edward H. Sebesta said...

The Republican party has had prior involvement with neo-Confederacy.

It is in the book, "Neo-Confederacy: A Critical Introduction," Univ. of Texas Press, Dec. 2008. You can read the Introduction and browse the book here.

http://www.utexas.edu/utpress/excerpts/exhagneo.html

5:43 AM  
Blogger Steve said...

Reminds me of the pair of bumper stickers I saw on the back of a pickup on my way home from work (I live in Texas). The bumper sticker on the right said "McCain/Palin: Country First." The sticker on the left had a confederate flag with the word "Secede" superimposed.

I actually think this was just an absentminded statement that has gotten more coverage than it really deserved. Much ado about little.

9:27 AM  
Blogger DukeofMadness said...

To confuse matters further, it is unclear that the act of secession (or the support of it) is in fact treason.

During the Civil War, the greatest thorns in the side of Lincoln in trying to reconcile the confederate states back into the union fold were the (ironically) Republican "Radicals." These radicals wanted every confederate soldier and politician hung from the nearest yardarm. Generals Grant and Sherman put a stop to this, as it undercut the terms of the surrenders negotiated by them with generals Lee and Johnston, respectively.

Shortly after Lincoln's assassination, Jefferson Davis was captured by Union troops in Georgia. Davis was the clearest example of secession and his scalp was wanted badly.

But it never happened. After over two years in a Federal prison, Davis was released on a habeus corpus claim (such claims were routinely denied during the war).

I'll leave it to Steve to analyze the law on this, I'm just recounting a too brief version of the history. Secession wound up with this weird status: while stupid, it was never defined as treason. A state has no right to withdraw from the union, but those doing so are not committing treason.

Secession is stupid, a political act of petulance that attempts to preserve a "way of life" that no longer exists. For good or bad, we are all in the same boat for the same wild ride.

The greatest significance of our Civil War was this: before the war, the common phrase was "The United States ARE." After the war, it was "The United States IS."

10:14 AM  
Blogger prius04 said...

To Dukeof...
Just because Confederates were not executed for treason does not mean that secession is not treason. The decision to forgo trials at the time was based upon pragmatism and not firmly in the rule of law.

2nd point, Texas being able to split into 5 states was repealed by their agreement to reenter the Union in 1865. People need to realize that the Confederate States had to make promises to the Union before they were allowed back in the Union. Those promises supersede any treaty that might allow Texas to split into 5 states. (And there is in fact such a - moot - treaty.)

And as the Bush administration showed us with their abrogation of treaties left and right, and as the devolution of nearly all the treaties we had with the Indians showed us, Treaties have pretty much zero value.

11:03 AM  
Anonymous tsisageya said...

Andrew Jackson? Be careful what you wish for

11:21 AM  
Blogger Steve said...

Secession is not treason. We know this because no less than the Constitution of the United States (Art.III, Sec.3 Cl.1) defines Treason very clearly: Treason against the United States, shall consist ONLY in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same OVERT Act, or on Confession in open Court.

Seceding is not levying war, and it would take tremendous stretch of imagination to consider a State's secession as giving Aid and Comfort to their Enemies.

The Founders were very deliberate in this - it's the only crime defined in the Constitution itself. This is significant, because it demonstrates that the Founders knew the dangers imposed in having a liberal, fluid definition of Treason.

11:26 AM  
OpenID Begonia Buzzkill said...

from www.talkingpointsmemo.com

With the apparent desire of some Texans to secede from the United States, one cost conscious eBayer has taken it upon themselves to place the state on the auction block and sell it off to the highest bidder as a way of defraying the cost of the bank bailout and possibly some portion of the national debt.

The minimum bid for Texas was set at $100,000. But it's already been bid up to over $65 million.

12:21 PM  
Blogger prius04 said...

Steve,

Very good point and I had missed that. Thus, the leaders of the Confederacy could be argued to have not committed treason because once they seceded, this passage of the Constitution would no longer apply to them.

However, this arguably would only apply to the original states that seceded in Dec 1860 to Feb 1861.

Jeff Davis was from Mississippi, thus protected from a charge of Treason.

But once the Confederacy attacked Ft Sumter, secession might indeed be arguably treason at that point. And 4 states changed sides once that attack took place.

In any case, the prosecution for treason was very much on peoples minds back then, at least in some cases was technically applicable. But it didn't happen, again due to pragmatism.

12:25 PM  
Blogger prius04 said...

Begonia,

The bidding is up to 100 million and it's still there. Surprised that ebay hasn't taken it down yet. eBay probably likes the advertising. I heard they too are suffering in the current economy.

http://cgi.ebay.com/The-Great-State-of-Texas_W0QQitemZ170322454911QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLand?hash=item170322454911&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2|65%3A3|39%3A1|240%3A1318

12:29 PM  
Blogger Kate said...

I most strongly disagree with this article because of this: Its not because the republicans are "pissed," because they're not getting their way. Most republicans still hold to the values that this nation was founded on!! Under GOD(we dont see that anymore!! Its politically incorrect, while homosexuals can flaunt their beliefs, christians are told to shut up and keep quiet. Dont offend anyone.) Homosexuality runs rampid spreading diseases. I dont hate homosexuals I have a few that are my friends but I dont agree with what they do. God calls it sin and blasphemy. We murder unborn children, crimes go unpunished. This Nation is a wreck. And one of the reasons(from what I know) that some want to seceed is because of that!! It goes to prove to some dummies once again that the Civil War was NOT over slavery. It was State Rights, and it was an issue that was never resolved, and therefore is a problem. When our Nation goes against what it claims to stand for, the I believe we should have the right to calmly step out of it, and form our own government, and make it what God intended it to be once more. What our forefathers DIED for. There are no morals left in this country, and I for one agree that I want no part of the sin, and I'm ashamed of what goes on. When the South seceeded, they didnt want war. They just said, you know, we dont agree with what you're doing here. We will stand for what this Nation was founded on, even if you don't. But the Union wouldnt allow it. So until the issue is resolved once and for all, its not over.

2:14 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

i like pres. jacson's remedy for thoughts of session. hang the traitors from the nearest tree. i volunteer to tie the rope & release it. they can then join gen. robt. e. lee in paradise!

2:45 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kate, it was the South that fired the first shot in the civil war, so please don't say they didn't want war, when they attacked Fort Sumter, first. And the plantation owners did not want to pay for all that labor to pick all that cotton, but if they were kept as slaves, there'd be no labor cost and they'd save huge. So, yes the civil war WAS about slavery, but not on a moral level, rather financial.

2:49 PM  
Blogger Papamoka said...

Kate,

Your arguement is ludicrous and lacks common sense on the issue. I take it your pissed because gay people finally have some form or voice in America. Tell me I'm wrong but your arguement places all of Americas problems on gay and lesbians and that my friend makes no sense? Look around you, the world is changing and not everyone on the left is anti Christian which I am, my five daughters are, and the wife is.

So how is secession effective to mend the problems facing America today Kate?

5:58 PM  
Blogger prius04 said...

Prior to attacking Ft Sumter, the south forced under gun all the other federal forts in the south to surrender. Many of those incidents were acts of war, depending on the circumstances.

One of the reasons for all these surrenders was the lack of leadership from Pres Buchanan. (One of the reasons he's neck and neck with W for the honor of worst President in history.) The second was any attempt by the Federals to defend those forts would have been suicidal. Ft Sumter was defended in part because it was thought to be defendable.

As for States rights as being the cause of the war, this is a rewrite of history that's been going on since the 1870s. I would invite anyone to google a copy of the Confed Constitution. Read it. And you will see how remarkably similar it is to our own. (Not surprising when you consider our own was written pretty much by Virginians.) There are 2 major differences between the 2 Constitutions. One is the absolute protection of slavery in the Confederate one, and the other is an expansion of the rights and powers of the central government. Thus, under the Confederacy, the States would have been LESS free, and MORE subservient to the will of their Federal Government.

These are facts that are easily verified by anyone wishing to know the facts. And of course for those that don't, there's Faux News and their ilk.

Anyone remotely reality based knows that slavery was pretty much the exclusive reason we had that war. Now I'm pretty sure that individual soldiers were snookered into thinking they were fighting for something more noble, but that WAS NOT the reason their leaders decided to take them down that route. It was about cheap labor. AKA slavery. And one of the biggest arguments they used to defend slavery was the Christian Bible. The same Bible they use today to defend their hatred for gays.

6:13 PM  
Blogger Papamoka said...

I like your writing style Prious04! Damn good... :)

6:22 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

This known as the "right of revolution". Meaning that people have certain rights, and when a government violates these rights, the people have the right to "alter or abolish" that government.

Leftists, liberals, whatever you want to call yourselves all like to call us on the right or right of the middle Radicals because we are holding in our hands our Declaration of Independence and our first right as free people. We recognize the government is failing us and we are voicing our right to abolish or alter the government. The nation is built on states, those states are the people. Meaning the Nation is the people. But as of now the nation has become only some of those people, and those of us on the right are harassed, ridiculed, tormented, and thrown words like treason, unamerican, domestic terrorists, unpatriotic.

I swore an oath to the Constitution, to the rights and freedoms of American citizens, and all I am seeing now is alot of those citizens are blattently being ignored by the controlling regime. Go ahead and say Bush never listened to liberals...the man had liberal advisors, and he suffered more flak every day from liberal media that nObama has from Puby media. All nObama has to deal with is the voice of Rush Limbaugh and a few bloggers. The liberal media spins a web of gold around nObama making him seem like a prophet. That man lives in a liberal bubble, his advisors dont argue they agree...you cant have 2 people with the same ideas offering 1 idea to you, you have to hear the other half of the arguement because we Pubys are citizens too.

Sore losers? Yea some of us are pissed a Dem is in office, but me myself I am not so mad at the fact its a Dem in office its the fact of which Dem is in office. An unexperienced senator with a constantly changing fabricated history. It starts he was born in Chicago and raised in Hawaii with several years in Malaysia or Indonesia, then it twists to born in Hawaii raised in Kanasas, worked at a small Chicago law firm then went government. Then goes around again born somewhere birth certificate Hawaii, raised everywhere but US, worked at a large liberal law firm in Chicago where he met his wife, attended a socialist church *somehow managing to miss every anti-American sermon* and has incredible experience in politics.

The man is not right for the job. His first orders of business are to sacrifice our defenses in Cuba and to start trying to get punishments for the past regime. Liberals seem to believe knowing everything is a better idea of freedom. Ignorance is bliss, people dont need to know what happens in the dark shadows where nations are kept safe. Things have to happen if you want results from fanatics, you cant treat them like guests at a 5 star hotel and expect them to give you anything. They want us dead. Now heres nObama making a mockery of the presidency always looking unprofessional, meeting and greeting threats to US freedoms, looking at spending money on other countries to help them thrive (because it can help our economy somehow), thinking letting everyone *i mean the entire world* know who, what, where, when, and how our operatives are doing is a good idea.

Our government has failed the people. I have democrate friends who agree and are very sad to see how terrible the "prophet" is doing. You think Bush was bad? How many politicians had states wanting to secede under Bush? Under Clinton? Under Bush senior? Even under Carter, Reagan, or Nixon? Only nObama has the voice of secession been so strong. Blame the economy, blame it on "radical right wingers" but I see that the government has failed the people, and my allegiance is to the people and all its enemies, be them terrorists or enemy nations, or be them a corrupt government that no longer works for the peoples best interest.

I am a secessionist, I stand the ground that my forefathers stood when their government no longer treated them like people. They said never again with the government ignore the people because the people are the government. We have gone too far, we have grown too large, our government is no longer people but professional politicians who don't always see what the people want but only what their bank accounts or funding friends want. I am a secessionist, I am an American, I am a soldier and a Veteran, and I believe in the people before I believe in the government.

10:03 PM  
Blogger Dan said...

I have a question. Everyone is saying secession would be treason. But treason to who or what? Mind you that the central government is not supposed to be doing half the things it does by order of the constitution. The rights of the peope derive from the constitution then the states then the people. Central government is not the final say in all matters, but you all seem to think that secession from the Union *eliminating usurption to the central government and returning to the Constitutional roots of our creation* is treason.

Treason is defined as an act f disloyalty to one's soverign. Or aiding a foreign country to overthrown one's soverign government. In these United States our soverign is the state in which you reside, not the checks and balances, controlled *in theory* by the people central government. Treason is what the government has done to the states, violating the consitutition on an hourly basis, and what everyone does to themselves towards the constitution by not doing anything about it. Treason? I don't, and I am not alone, recognize the central government as my sovereign, that is left to the state in which I reside. To the constitution that I believe in. And to the people I swore to protect. Call me a traitor? Which one of us is doing the protecting by volunteer? I respect your words, but remember that I stood up and allowed my life to be controlled by the corrupt goverment voluntarily in your defense...you are allowing the corrupt government to control you out of disregard of the constitution. So who is the traitor? Me, you, or them?

7:48 PM  

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