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Wednesday, August 18, 2010

Mosque at Ground Zero

Should they put up a Mosque within a mile of the twin towers in New York City? Nope! Sorry if you are Muslim but it is totally inappropriate to insult the memories of the 3000 plus people who were killed by extremist of a religion that has been hijacked by nut jobs. There is nothing wrong with Islam but you do not put up a Japanese shrine over the U.S.S. Arizona in Pearl Harbor to honor the people that attacked us. Is this not COMMON SENSE?

The thought that this is freedom of religion is ignorant of the thought that innocent people were killed for no other reason than to draw attention to a religion that has been bastardized by idiots that think everyone but them is unclean and undeserving to live. NOT IN THE USA! In this country you can be whoever you want to be and worship wherever you want. The folks behind this can pick another spot to plant a Mosque and worship in peace.

I don’t care who you are or what religion you believe in, you do not desecrate the graves of thousands to promote the thoughts behind the murderers that killed those thousand of people? Am I nuts or am I overwhelmed at how stupid an issue this has become? Would you build a memorial to German SS soldiers at Auschwitz?

I’m pretty sure that that a Mosque will never happen on ground zero because it is owned by the city of New York Port Authority and it isn’t up for sale, but it is an issue that seems to have become larger than life even though a Mosque built at ground zero where the twin towers once stood will never happen.

If you need a reminder then here is just one video that brings back the madness that was 9/11. Let me know if you think a place of worship should ever be over the graves of many of the family members that were never recovered.

Video Link

Related Links…
Howard Dean’s Thoughts on the Mosque and it should move…
Mosque supporters beg GW Bush for Support…


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Anonymous Anonymous said...

I completely agree with you here. It blows my mind that we'd even entertain the thought of putting a mosque there. The to-do is about potential desecration of a grave site, not about religious tolerance. Some people who are for this mosque ask, "What if Catholics had been behind 9/11," thinking that it would be alright then, to put a Catholic church there. Nope. There are no double standards. It's heartless and cruel to try to put a mosque there.

10:28 AM  
Blogger Papamoka said...

I would honestly like to know what ever happened to the idea of putting a new skyscraper up on the site?

I am 100% with you on the grave site thought Chell.

8:41 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

I usually share your values so I have to say that I'm very disappointed in this post by you. Fareed Zakarka (a writer I respect very much) speaks to my own reaction to the whole "issue." For anyone who's willing to set aside kneejerk emotional reactions, I recommend a couple of his statements on the topic at:
I'm posting this as anonymous because I don't want to get spam from hate groups and this issue is a wonderful playground for them.

5:54 PM  
Blogger Sue said...

But Mat, the community center which will have a prayer room will be 2 blocks away and is not even visible from ground zero. It's a community center which will also focus on bringing the American people an understanding of what Islam is. This hysteria is not sensible thinking IMO. Our country needs to stop the fearmongering and realize 3,000 people of ALL faiths died that day, not just American Americans. Muslim Americans who worked in the towers and helped in the rescue, died that day too. Do you know that Muslims come together each day and pray for the victims?

6:30 PM  
Anonymous Infidel753 said...

I agree with the sentiment. The amount of nonsense that is being talked about this among my fellow left-winger bloggers is depressing.

From a legal viewpoint, the Muslims do have a fairly airtight First Amendment right to build a mosque there, so long as they own the property (the proposed mosque site is a few blocks from Ground Zero). But if they have any decency, they'll back down from this project voluntarily and look for another site.

Public opinion is overwhelmingly against this.

And I'm afraid Islam actually has not been "hijacked by nutjobs". If you study Islam in-depth (it was my area of specialization at university), it's people like bin Laden and the Taliban -- not the moderates -- who are living and acting in accordance with the real Islam of the Koran and Hadîth.

10:47 AM  
Blogger Papamoka said...

Sue, Infidel, and Anonymous,

I thank you all for the comments but I firmly believe that you do not piss on the graves of anyone simply because our Constitution gives you the right to do so. It is called respect for the dead or should I say the murdered. Mind you that I am a huge freedom of religion backer and I would put on a uniform to defend your right to have that freedom.

I'm also aware that this mosque or prayer room is far away from the actual site of the World Trade Centers. Reports that I have read are six blocks but I may be wrong. Common sense is all that I'm thinking in regards to this whole issue. You just don't do this sort of crap to draw attention to a faith that is already under negative fire with American opinion to begin with. Build it in Harlem, or Queens, or even Brooklyn and it wouldn't have even made the newspapers.

Trust me, I didn't write this post because I hate Muslims or the Islamic faith. I was simply making a point that it was a very poor choice by the faithful of Islam for a location where so many hearts are still suffering a deep loss. And it is still and will be a sore spot for many that lost loved ones that day so many years ago.

God bless the NYPD and NYFD for running in where everyone else was running in the other direction.

Just saying...

7:39 PM  
Anonymous Infidel753 said...

Sue: It's a community center which will also focus on bringing the American people an understanding of what Islam is

Indeed, it's already serving as an opportunity to educate Americans about what Islam truly is. See for example here.

10:33 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

If we follow the argument that the proposed location is too close to Ground Zero, then how do we establish the distance where an Islamic Center/Mosque can be built without being insensitive to others?

Perhaps it is a poor decision to pick that location, but that is the location that they chose, and it complies with NYC's zoning laws.

Also, this proposal is supported by Mayor Bloomberg and the NYC Bar Association.

5:31 PM  
Blogger Jersey McJones said...

I come at this from the sphere of thought that says, "Is it a good idea to build a Mosque/Islamic Community Center that close to Ground Zero? No. Is it within their rights? Yes." Now, of course, the sides have become intransigent because of the vitriol. I wish we could all just stop yelling about it, keep an eye on these mosque builders, and as long as this center is built and used for the right reasons, for our better angels, leave them alone.

I'm a native New Yorker (I know, I know, my moniker says otherwise). I love New York. 9/11 pained me to no end. I was there. just accross the river. I saw the whole thing go down with mine own eyes. What a terrible day. I know I'll never forget it. I know I also saw the fucking stupidity that would come from it - IMMEDIATELY. But if this center could be a place for moderate Islam to show good faith and peace with America, then more power to 'em. If it is EVER used for anything else? Shut it the fuck down immediately.


9:08 PM  
Blogger Jersey McJones said...

"Sue, Infidel, and Anonymous,

I thank you all for the comments but I firmly believe that you do not piss on the graves of anyone simply because our Constitution gives you the right to do so."


I think the world of you, but here I think you've let your emotions get the best of you. Without that constitution, we have NOTHING. The constitution IS America. And if we just buffet our way through it, than it is meaningless. Sometimes the constitution hurts - but it exists and survives for a reason - and damned good reason. Let's never - NEVER - forget that.

Ciao, JMJ

9:11 PM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

In the Boris Pasternak book, Dr. Zhivago is scrounging wood from a fence. His family is freezing and he's desperate for firewood. A local communist offical stops him and proclaims, "I have the right to arrest you." Zhivago responds, "You have the authority to arrest me, not the right."

To me, that is the root of this Islamic center dispute. I ask where the sensitivity to those who find it inappropriate to build such a center so close to Ground Zero. I don't have the authority to ask that question; I have the right. Those who disagree have that right also.

Lately, though, there appears to be a fear that opposition to this center will "play into the hands of Islamic extremists." This is the harbinger of appeasement. And if you think about it, the attacks of 9/11 were all about fear....we've been living under it for nine years now, along with some rather draconian laws to "protect" us from that which we now, apparently, have to appease.

Christopher Hitchens has it right, in that it's disgusting to see the grand-standers using this whole thing to get their mugs once again in front of a TV camera. Maybe some of it borders on xenophobia, but Hitchens also points out that Islam itself has more than a few questions to answer.

It is a fact that the perpetrators of the WTC bombing in 1993, the embassy bombings in Africa, the U.S.S. Cole, the Madrid bombings, the London bombings, Mumbai, the Twin Towers, etc., were NOT Quakers. They were representing a faith, and believed themselves to be acting on that faith.

Unfortunately, I believe it is only a matter of when, not if, another act is committed that will produce a reaction in this country that will shock even the most ardent Islamic fanatic. This is NOT a Christian nation, when it's put into a corner. Our national symbol prefers the olive branch, but still clutches arrows in its other talons.



6:46 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

"Piss on the graves?" Sorry, but you've been had. That simply is not what's happening here at all, as you'll see if you'll bother to find out what the cultural center is, and who's behind it. You're making the mistake of spitting at the very people who are the best oppostion to those responsible for 9/11. These are not the same Muslims all. It's like saying because the KKK burns crosses, no church should be built in the neighborhood.

1:37 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

So those behind the planned building of this center have the legal right to do so. They also have, one would hope, the human ability to feel and to reason. It is unreasonable to think that building this center so near such a site is somehow going to settle differences. Rather, it has already ignited a fire. Just because you can do something, it doesn't mean you should.

5:03 PM  
Blogger Steve said...

I've covered this already here.

It's not a mosque, people.

7:09 AM  
Blogger Papamoka said...

MLJ!!! Do you ever check your email buddy???? Need to do some serious catching up my friend.

8:15 AM  
Anonymous Anonymous said...

Hi there.... I disagree with you here. No one is building a mosque on the actual site. There are possible plans to build a community center 3 blocks away from the site. (BIG DIFFERENCE) All Muslims are not terrorists. I am really sorry that you feel this way...

12:31 PM  
Anonymous F&B said...

This has been a very difficult issue for many. Despite my earlier feelings on the subject, I have come to believe that the "community center" and it's builders should just be ignored. The U.S. stands for more than this issue and this time. By opposing anyone's right to do what they have a right to do, we diminish ourselves and the importance of our Constitution and our way of life. I agree that the people responsible for this should show more compassion for the families who are still grieving after 9-11, but they do not. And as callous as it may sound, the Constitution and this country are more important that the feelings of a few thousand or even a few million grieving families.

Some have expressed outrage that if the "mosque" is built, that the terrorists will have won. I think that if we oppose the "mosque" then the terrorists will have won.

We have to stand by our principles and our Constitution and remember that sometimes the price of freedom and liberty is a high price, but in the long run it is worth it.

(BTW, great to see you're still fighting the good fight MLJ.)


1:34 PM  
Blogger John Myste said...


I realize that I may have discovered this late and the warranty may be up, but I have a question.

You said: “And I'm afraid Islam actually has not been "hijacked by nutjobs". If you study Islam in-depth (it was my area of specialization at university), it's people like bin Laden and the Taliban -- not the moderates -- who are living and acting in accordance with the real Islam of the Koran and Hadîth.”

I am mostly ignorant of Islam and freely admit it. I know that many Muslims claim to embrace the basic message of Jesus, which as presented is one of love, not hate.

If you use the Old Testament of Christianity over the message of Jesus, then God is an evil opportunist neurotic Beast. You can use the Qu’ran the same way, as I understand things, to show that Allah is evil and embraces hatred. However, the overall message of Christianity, at least the one Christians claim, is a message of love, not hate. Convince me that the same is not true for Islam. Keep in mind that a Muslim studying the Judeo-Christian tradition would see God as a genocidal, vengeful, nutcase, even though that God is rejected by Christians.

Christians invented a concept of a New Covenant, whereby their immutable, infallible God recognized the un-workability of His old design and changed His mind about the rules. The Old Testament does not support this divine change of heart and it would be undetectable to a studious Muslim without a Christian background. Muslims would not read the New Covenant as a rescinding of the violated covenant, but instead would understand merely what the text implies: that it is second chance to follow the same God they always knew. However, Christians read it as an opportunity to turn their back on the barbaric God in favor of the new God’s message of love.

You cannot use the Christian Holy Text to understand Christianity, as the text does not support the philosophy: thus Christianity survives. I know less of the Jewish workaround to the problem of an evil God, but I think it is wrapped up in Talmudic re-interpretations.

Are you acknowledging that Christianity and Judaism have a solution to the problem of an evil God? If so, are you denying that Islam has a similar solution?

One more thing, to anyone who happens to have subscribed to this post: there is no reason Americans cannot build mosques anywhere it is legal. They should be allowed to. They are assholes in this case, or they would not want to. Many of them claimed they were doing it to “mend” the rift created by 9/11, to heal. Were that the case, they would have withdrew immediately when they detected it had the opposite effect. Whether or not the objections are rational, they are genuine and they are not racist, a claim that some have made. They are probably a little irrational, like any phobia that arises from trauma. Victims of phobia are victims and purportedly healthy people should respect this fact.

Anonymous, I agree that is say one mile is too close, then what is not too close. If you asking out of curiosity, it is a good question. If you are using it to prove a point, the technical name for your question is “slippery slope fallacy.”

6:58 PM  

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